Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: "Deviated" right hand Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:34:38 GMT Trahd posted this in the Freedom vs Regulation Thread, and I want to respond, but I think this is really a new thread... >The most common bad advice is to play with a deviated right hand >position. That is, with a right wrist that is bent "Segovia Style I don't believe that Segovia's hand position was the same as the "deviated right position" that people rightfully caution about. I have played with Segovia's hand position for many years, and this is the truth about it: The right wrist is not bent sideways. To illustrate: Hold your forearm out in front of you with the palm of your right hand parallel to the floor. Let your wrist go limp. *That* is the right hand position. The adjustment over the guitar strings is made by the positioning of the right forearm on the guitar body. It is placed slightly closer to the neck than in the other position. If done correctly, there is absolutely no strain or risk involved with using this position. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:53:24 GMT I want to add another thought to this: >To illustrate: Hold your forearm out in front of you with the palm of >your right hand parallel to the floor. Let your wrist go limp. >*That* is the right hand position. The adjustment over the guitar >strings is made by the positioning of the right forearm on the guitar >body. It is placed slightly closer to the neck than in the other >position. If done correctly, there is absolutely no strain or risk >involved with using this position. The reason the right hand looks "deviated" when viewed from the front of the guitar is that when you allow the hand to drop by letting your wrist go limp, there is a natural twist in the alignment of the knuckles. The i knuckle is farther out in front of you than that of the a. The real difference between Segovia's position and the other way is that the wrist is almost totally limp in the Segovia position. The natural twist of the hand is apparently being mistakenly viewed as a "deviated right hand." Using this position for many years, I have never experienced *any* fatigue at all in my right hand. None. Left hand, yes, I used to. Right hand, never, not even once. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:56:17 -0400 > To illustrate: Hold your forearm out in front of you with > the palm of your right hand parallel to the floor. Let your > wrist go limp. *That* is the right hand position. The adjust- > ment over the guitar strings is made by the positioning of > the right forearm on the guitar body. It is placed slightly > closer to the neck than in the other position. If done correctly, > there is absolutely no strain or risk involved with using this > position. When I hold my forearm parallel to the floor and allow my wrist to go limp, my hand hangs down at a bit more than a 45 degree angle. I would be surprised if anyone could play comfortably with their wrist arched to this extent. As an experiment, rapidly wiggle your fingers with your hand in this position. Then raise your hand so that the wrist is arched only about 10 degrees--if you're very sensitive to tension, you'll notice your fingers move more freely. Of course, you didn't specify the position of your forearm as you let your wrist go limp. So if your forearm was inclined (elbow higher than wrist) toward the floor, letting your wrist go limp would result in less arch than if your forearm was parallel to the floor. Further, perhaps your wrist doesn't arch as much as mine when you let it go limp. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: 06 Jan 1999 22:53:50 GMT >The real difference between Segovia's position and the other >way is that the wrist is almost totally limp in the Segovia position. >The natural twist of the hand is apparently being mistakenly viewed as >a "deviated right hand." Using this position for many years, I have The last time I saw Segovia, he had a relatively straight wrist. I know he changed his hand position quite late in life. Perhaps someone could comment on this. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand > >>The real difference between Segovia's position and the other >>way is that the wrist is almost totally limp in the Segovia position. >>The natural twist of the hand is apparently being mistakenly viewed as >>a "deviated right hand." Using this position for many years, I have > >The last time I saw Segovia, he had a relatively straight wrist. I know he >changed his hand position quite late in life. Perhaps someone could comment on >this. Could it have to do with his expanding waist line causing the guitar to be tilted back relative to its position in earlier years? In other words, he would need less bend in the wrist to address the strings at the same angle. This would also have had a bad effect on his left hand, come to think of it. (If so, this is a good reason to watch our diets, fellow guitarists!) Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand >When I hold my forearm parallel to the floor and allow my wrist to go >limp, my hand hangs down at a bit more than a 45 degree angle. I would >be surprised if anyone could play comfortably with their wrist arched to >this extent. As an experiment, rapidly wiggle your fingers with your >hand in this position. Then raise your hand so that the wrist is arched >only about 10 degrees--if you're very sensitive to tension, you'll >notice your fingers move more freely. I'm glad you said this, because my description is inadequate. Yes, when you are actually playing, your wrist is less than fully bent. Working the fingers makes it unbend part way. Above all, you don't force it to do anything it doesn't want to do naturally. My wrist can arch, I would estimate, about 30 degrees and allow me to move my loosely curled fingers freely. Maybe your mileage will differ. Perhaps differences in these factors could account for the discomfort others apparently experience playing in the "Segovia position." At any rate, my hand position looks like Segovia's, and I play on the opposite side of the fingers from most players, and I experience no discomfort. However, if I play the way others play, and then try to move my wrist from there to the "Segovia position," I do experience discomfort. You have to reposition the right forearm first. > >Of course, you didn't specify the position of your forearm as you let >your wrist go limp. So if your forearm was inclined (elbow higher than >wrist) toward the floor, letting your wrist go limp would result in less >arch than if your forearm was parallel to the floor. Further, perhaps >your wrist doesn't arch as much as mine when you let it go limp. The main idea I was trying to convey is that the apparent sideways bending of the wrist is sort of an optical illusion, if you will, caused by the anatomy of the hand. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:48:11 -0600 > > > I don't believe that Segovia's hand position was the same as the > "deviated right position" that people rightfully caution about. > > I have played with Segovia's hand position for many years, and this is > the truth about it: The right wrist is not bent sideways. > > To illustrate: Hold your forearm out in front of you with the palm of > your right hand parallel to the floor. Let your wrist go limp. > *That* is the right hand position. To call Segovia's right hand position "deviated" and "bad technical advice" is blasphemous and insulting. It's also true. When one plays with a bent (or "unaligned", if you prefer) wrist, the tendons are constricted in movement. Repetitive movement can cause tendonitis or carpal tunnel syndrome. The carpal tunnel is a narrow tunnel in the wrist through which the tendons must move in order to control the movements of the fingers. A bent or deviated wrist causes the tendons to crowd one side of the tunnel. This restriction can cause tendonitis through repetitive movement. Muscles move best when aligned with the joints they control. It is true that the right hand doesn't look bent from every angle, but what does that prove? After all, a train moving at 100 mph can appear motionless if it is headed straight for you. The Segovia right hand position is probably one of the most potentially damaging types of CG technique that exist. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand >The Segovia right hand position is probably one of the most potentially >damaging types of CG technique that exist. So a student should listen to you rather than Segovia? Boy, that's got to be confusing for a new student. The other problem is that I agree with you but where does that leave us? I certainly don't have the reputation that Segovia does and, I know this is a shock to you Tony but, if I tell a student that you agree with me it still doesn't count as much as Segovia. It's really hard to argue with success. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand >So a student should listen to you rather than Segovia? Boy, that's got to >be confusing for a new student. The other problem is that I agree with you >but where does that leave us? I certainly don't have the reputation that >Segovia does and, I know this is a shock to you Tony but, if I tell a >student that you agree with me it still doesn't count as much as Segovia. >It's really hard to argue with success. > The famous photograph of Segovia reaching over to pluck a single string is often sited as the Segovia hand position. It turns out that this is a false reresentation of what he really did. When I saw him in the 70's, it looked like he had been taking lessons from Aaron Shearer. He had a slight arch to the wrist and no serious deviation. His muscle alienment looked good. I'm not sure of this, but I believe he changed from a deviated wrist to a relatively straight wrist in his 50's. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand >I'm not >sure of this, but I believe he changed from a deviated wrist to a relatively >straight wrist in his 50's. I also saw Segovia many times, including his last concert in LA (I think that was the last concert he gave) and I think you may be right, Kent. But none the less the bent right hand is still used by big players and this makes it very difficult to say "Listen to me, THEY don't know what they are talking about. Segovia changed his hand position later". I mean, who the heck am I? At least you've published music with a major publisher to give weight to what you say. I'm using this example just to show how hard it is to say anything definitive about CG technique. There are too many "authorities" who disagree about basic CG technique. Look at the darn planting issue in this NG or the fact that there are some prominent teachers who advocate the abolishment of rest stroke. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:21:40 -0500 > >I'm not > >sure of this, but I believe he changed from a deviated wrist to a > relatively > >straight wrist in his 50's. > > I also saw Segovia many times, including his last concert in LA (I think > that was the last concert he gave) and I think you may be right, Kent. But > none the less the bent right hand is still used by big players and this > makes it very difficult to say "Listen to me, THEY don't know what they are > talking about. Segovia changed his hand position later". I mean, who the > heck am I? At least you've published music with a major publisher to give > weight to what you say. Many people have severely injured themselves using bent wrist, all sorts of levels of playing too. That might have enough weight to dissuade 'em eh? ;) Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: 07 Jan 1999 23:10:29 GMT > I'm using this example just to show how hard it is to say anything >definitive about CG technique. There are too many "authorities" who disagree >about basic CG technique. Look at the darn planting issue in this NG or the >fact that there are some prominent teachers who advocate the abolishment of >rest stroke. The reason for all the variation is that what is possible is not always what is best. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:16:16 -0400 > The famous photograph of Segovia reaching over to pluck a > single string is often sited as the Segovia hand position. It > turns out that this is a false representation of what he really did. > When I saw him in the 70's, it looked like he had been taking > lessons from Aaron Shearer. He had a slight arch to the wrist > and no serious deviation. His muscle alignment looked good. > I'm not sure of this, but I believe he changed from a deviated > wrist to a relatively straight wrist in his 50's. Shearer told me an interesting story regarding this photograph. When Shearer was a young guitarist years ago, he had very little information to go on. So whenever he chanced on a photo of Segovia, he would use that as a model of how to play the guitar. When he saw the famous "Segovia hand" photo, Shearer assumed this was a good model for right hand positioning. Years later Shearer learned how this photo was produced: someone held up an outstretched string and asked Segovia to hold his hand against it. Thus, the resulting position was entirely artificial and had little to do with how Segovia actually played. I'm curious--can anyone confirm if this is how the "Segovia hand" photo was produced? Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:40:15 GMT There is a photo of Segovia in the Christopher Parkening Guitar Method, Vol 1, page 13. Is this the photo being discussed here? > > I'm curious--can anyone confirm if this is how the "Segovia hand" photo > > was produced? > > Where can I find this photo? I don't remember ever seeing > it. > Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:22:22 -0600 > > server wrote: > >The Segovia right hand position is probably one of the most potentially > >damaging types of CG technique that exist. > > So a student should listen to you rather than Segovia? Boy, that's got to > be confusing for a new student. The other problem is that I agree with you > but where does that leave us? I certainly don't have the reputation that > Segovia does and, I know this is a shock to you Tony but, if I tell a > student that you agree with me it still doesn't count as much as Segovia. > It's really hard to argue with success. Is the current state of guitar pedagogy so primitive that we are limited to only teach by imitating other artists? If so, then in the case of Segovia, are we to adopt his flaws in addition to his finer points? If we take this idea to its logical conclusion, does this mean that, for example, if we would like to become as great a jazz composer as Miles Davis, then we should copy all his nasty habits, right down to beating and cursing his wife, just like he did? No, I think that our duty as good teachers is to be more than just apologists for "star" musicians. If a great musician has a flaw, we should not be so "star-struck" that we should be obliged to accept it or even ignore it. For guitar pedagogy to advance, teachers should be able to separate principle from personality. Hopefully, if we explain why certain techniques work better than others, then the thoughtful student will be sufficiently motivated. A perfect example comes from my former teacher, Adam Holzman. He himself plays "Segovia-Style", because he was taught that way when he was very young, and can't change. However, Holzman himself doesn't teach that way or even advocate it at all. He realizes that it isn't the optimal solution for right hand technique. Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 05:53:54 GMT >Is the current state of guitar pedagogy so primitive that we are limited >to only teach by imitating other artists? Sure seems that way to me. >If so, then in the case of Segovia, are we to adopt his flaws in >addition to his finer points? What flaws??? Heh, heh. >If we take this idea to its logical conclusion... Never a good idea. >Hopefully, if we explain why certain >techniques work better than others, then the thoughtful student will be >sufficiently motivated. Aye, there's the rub, mate ( it's getting late :-) >A perfect example comes from my former teacher, Adam Holzman. He himself >plays "Segovia-Style", because he was taught that way when he was very >young, and can't change. However, Holzman himself doesn't teach that way >or even advocate it at all. He realizes that it isn't the optimal >solution for right hand technique. Well this is interesting in light of discussions in this NG about how teachers should be able to demonstrate how one should play guitar rather than just tell them. "Do as I say not as I do" doesn't seem to fly in this NG. Don't get me wrong, I was on the other side of this argument and from everything I've heard Mr. Holzman runs one of the finest CG programs anywhere. I for one would be happy to study with him even if he plays with "defective" technique. But then I like to study with just about anybody since I take what I like and think about the rest. I've even learned some great stuff from... should I say it... yes... my students! Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar Subject: Re: "Deviated" right hand Date: 7 Jan 1999 13:00:51 GMT Playing in a "natural" position clearly lowers the risk of repetitive motion injury. That some players can get by with sharply deviated wrists just means they have genetics that allow them to play without injury, or other mitigating factors (exercise, rest, stretching etc). There are people who smoke for 90 years with seemingly no ill effects, but they are the exceptions. Beautiful music can be made with a natural position...