Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:42:48 GMT >Is the left-thumb-parallel-to-the-neck form > extremely deviant and likely to maim me eventually and kill my technique (i > exaggerate to make hte point) ? or is it relatively common and used by some > better known players? Like lumpy - or whoever the poster was - I find I get > more leverage that way and find the classical, perpendicular to the neck style > very awkward. Any thoughts on this would be very appreciated, as I'm starting > to wonder whether I should relearn all barre technique. Lets not start this again. If it works and it doesn't hurt, fine. I use both approaches, and all positions in between depending on the position on the neck and the other fingering. Have fun ======= Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:14:50 GMT I think the bottom line is to learn a variety of forms and use what's appropriate for your immediate need. Classical form is a great foundation, but it is appropriate for nylon-string guitars and for music of the classical genre. I have some classical training, and in my current playing (fingerstyle solo) I use mostly classical technique. However, there are lots of things that I do on a steel-string guitar that are never done with classical, not the least of which is that the narrower neck allows me to wrap my thumb when needed to do techniques that are near physically impossible on a classical guitar. There's a saying that says "You have to earn the right to break the rules." This is generally good wisdom (but obviously not a universal concrete rule). It is a good thing to become proficient in the classical discipline. Classical is a tried-and-true approach that has evolved over centuries to determine extremely efficient ways to bring music out of the guitar. At the risk of sounding snobbish, I'll say that I've seen guitar players who refused to submit to any "rules of good form," and these players usually had a lot of bad (i.e.; inefficient) habits that limited their ability to progress. That's fine with me...guitar is meant to be fun, and any individual should be free to take it wherever he/she really wants. But in my experience, the best way to really progress is to follow disciplined study along some path of established tradition (classical, jazz, whatever). That being said, there's another saying that says "As soon as you establish rules, the first thing you encounter is exceptions." Rules are a good thing if they direct your attention *away from* known ineffective ways to do things and *toward* ways that are efficient and yield the most flexibility. Rules are bad when they stifle creativity by forbidding *anything* outside the bounds. I think it's best to FOLLOW THE RULES until you have an established understanding of basic good form, then you can then make judgments about when to circumvent the rules. (Though I've worded that rather black-and-white, imagine a more greyish application of it.) Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: 21 Jul 1998 21:50:37 GMT I was that other poster who was surprised. He says he gets better results and I'm not sure why, so I'm still baffled. The idea is that you should always keep your thumb opposing your finger's force. Your hand is built to work that way. It seems physiologically impossible to me that the parallel to the neck thumb position would be better. Perhaps someone who knows more about ergonomics can comment on this. Or perhaps Lumpy can, I'm quite curious how he gets better use of his hand that way. >From my experience, I lose flexibility and power unless I keep my thumb opposing the finger movement. Specifically, I try and keep it behind the second finger. For example, doing a three note per string scale from the 6th string (1st finger start), I used to slide my hand over and drag the thumb so it would go more parallel to the neck. My teacher told me to keep the thumb pointing to the sky and sure enough my stretch and strength were better that way. Note that by parallel I mean pointing towards the headstock and by perpendicular I mean towards the sky perpendicular to the strings. It's certainly considered bad technique, so I would make absolutely sure it's really better for you that way before ingraining it even more into your habits. I still suggest you keep your hand in opposing thumb position. It's a sound ergonomic principle, which should mean it's the most natural way. I'll check what the exact justification is for that tonight when I get home. Once we understand the base reason, the right answer should be clear. And make sure you don't drag your thumb behind when you shift hand positions as it will impair your mobility on the neck. That's what I used to do that would have my thumb end up parallel to the neck (and the strings). Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: 22 Jul 1998 16:39:21 EDT de Mike Dusseault: ... I think it was Lumpy -- mentioned a couple days ago. He said that he holds his left thumb PARALLEL to the strings behind the neck when executing barres... de Salmonm: Lets not start this again. If it works and it doesn't hurt, fine. I use both approaches, and all positions in between depending on the position on the neck and the other fingering. de Ken: I think the bottom line is to learn a variety of forms and use what's appropriate for your immediate need. Classical form is a great foundation, but it is appropriate for nylon-string guitars and for music of the classical genre. de Lumpy: Classical guitar snobs might say (to the above)... The classical technique is filled with rules and right/wrong ways to produce tone. Straying from technique in classical might mean rotating your thumb a few degrees. Where use of a non-traditional hand position in blues/jazz/rock is not only perfectly acceptable, it is almost style defining. You guys are allowed the luxury of borrowing from the classical (and every other) technique. We are not. We can't even rotate our thumb a few degrees, think how our teachers would react to a left thumb low F# let me pull out my bottleneck slide and do you have cannon inputs? But probably most important is the difference in our individual physical hand/arm/body makeup. Make a fist... Where is your thumb? That's probably where your grip is strongest. That's probably not where your individual fingertips are the strongest. And it's probably not in the same place as mine, nor the next person. Try standing your family up against the wall. With their backs to the wall, look at the difference in space between their neck to wall, knee to wall, lumbar to wall etc. If you know anyone who is a foot taller or shorter than you, or weighs a hundred pounds more or less than you, look at your differences. Hold your hand up to a 4 year old's hand. All these differences are why my thumb can't go some places yours can. Some people can't do that Spock 'Live long and prosper' thing. Those giant, soft nylon strings are easy to push down for hours without pain. For me, trying to learn steel string barres is like a whole 'nuther instrument than classical guitar. It might as well be the trombone. I think when I'm doing barre's I rotate my thumb a little more toward neck-parallel because that's where my grip strength is stronger. Keeping my left thumb in the neck-perpindicular position to play barre's doesn't feel as strong. Here's some more physiology phun... Turn your guitar over and play it left (or whatever) handed. You know where the notes are fretted it should be easy... - Lumpy Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:12:56 -0700 For what it's worth, I agree with Mike. I use my thumb fairly often to fret the 6th string for moving bass lines. I do around 10 Broadway-style musical shows a year; with two 2-hour performances a night. Many of these chorus numbers are in 3 or 4 flats, requiring lots of barre chords (on my L-5 with .012-.052 gauge strings). I get pretty warm in my tux and my left forearm often starts cramping during the 2nd show of the night. I substitute fretting with my thumb for barre chords whenever I can, and think "Come on tacet!" until the gatoraid kicks in. Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: left thumb: parellel or perpen. to neck? Date: 23 Jul 1998 13:15:21 GMT Lumpy's right. As I examine how I hold my left hand, I notice that to hold my thumb fully perpendicular to the neck requires me to activate extra muscles to pull my thumb around and away from the web of the thumb. (Don't have my anatomy book here to throw around neat muscle names.) To put my thumb fully parallel to the neck, not only takes other unfamiliar muscles (adductors, I think) to pull the thumb laterally close to the rest of the hand, but I seem to need to use my thumb extensor to get that thumb back there. But to simply be able to put some grip on the neck for large demands like full barres, if I just pull my thumb right into my palm without any lateral deviation either way, I'm about halfway between parallel and perpendicular. I'm using only the muscles needed to apply the modest force needed for fretting, and I'm not working muscles that usually don't have a lot to do and aren't up to the task of maintaining a lot of awkward tension. I think any "optimization" of strength one might hope to gain in getting the thumb exactly opposite the fretting fingers may get lost in that extra unneccesary lateral tension - after all, you do have that big chunk 'o wood in between, and if you need every iota of ooomph to fret then you're squeezing the neck waaaayy to damn hard anyway. Get some lighter strings.