Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Bad back
Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:18:45 GMT
Hullo,
I practice for very long periods of time every day, and pretty much straight
through it, my back's been killing me! Muscles in the shoulders knot up and my
lower back hurts-- in spite of the fact that I've been taking care to watch my
posture. Anyone have any tips for dealing with this? Many thanks in advance--
I'm too young to have bad back! ;-)
S.McC.
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:53:26 -0500
I have been studying with Madeline Bruser, a New York pianist who is well
known for her seminars and her book The Art Of Practicing-Making Music from
The Heart. She offers an approach to practicing that releases tensions and
allows greater and more natural musical expression. ( In two months my
playing has changed dramatically). Maybe her book would help you-offering
many practical suggestions( e.g stretching, meditation,etc) and a healthy
stress free approach to practicing and music in general. I got it at
Amazon.com.
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
This may sound counter-intuitive, but if there's no medical problem involved, you
probably need to strengthen your abdominal muscles (abs). The key to lower back pain is
stronger abs. Sit ups, trips to the gym (where they probably have an ab machine), leg
raises.
Good luck.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Try tilting you seat so it has about a 30 degree angle. Make sure your knees
slope down and are lower than your hips.
-- end of forwarded message --
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
I have suffered with awful back problems for about 30 years and have
tried most things except surgery. I have "always" been told by
everyone who knows anything about problem backs, that the knees, when
sitting, should always be higher than the thighs. I always make sure
my car seats are so adjusted also. Lower knees puts stress on the
back. I also have just started seriously practicing each and every day
and always wear a brace. Braces are a necessity for me most days and
definitely when playing the piano. Even at that, sometimes I still get
a little pain. I found the best brace - and I have many, for playing
is one of those navy blue ones sold for horse riding with a pad in the
back. I use the widest one they make since the narrower ones roll up I
find. Hope this helps
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
I respectfully disagree about keeping knees higher than thighs. The lumbar
curve is what we need for proper stability and movement. That why we have one.
If your knees are higher than your thigh, this flattens the curve. You also
would have to slump forward to play piano or type. This is sort of the idea of
those chairs that have a slanted seat and you put your knees and shins against
the other part of the chair (to keep from falling forward).
I have also had back problems for more years than I'd like to count. When I
changed my piano bench angle, my pain in my lo back ended. Of course, I
exercise and see a chiro.
I found out about this info on-line at Musicians and Injuries web
site. I believe I read about the proper sitting position for cellists to
prevent back injuries. When I applied it to piano it worked.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
> I respectfully disagree about keeping knees higher than thighs. The lumbar
> curve is what we need for proper stability and movement. That why we
have one.
> If your knees are higher than your thigh, this flattens the curve.
There are individual differences here. If your back hurts, your lumbar
curve is already distorted. If it's too flexed, then flattening the curve
might improve things. OTOH, it might be too flat and you could make it
worse.
> Of course, I > exercise and see a chiro.
That's the answer I would give to the original poster. Get up and stretch,
go for long walks, use your body different ways--and get professional
advice from a chiropractor on specific exercises for your specific
problem. No one's body will function properly for long if all you do is
sit all day, no matter how good your posture is.
--
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
I totally agree with you. Giving advice about piano technique is one thing,
but medical advice on-line can be dangerous. It's great we can share ideas.
My learning to increase my curve while I sat was something I read on-line. I
tried it and it worked. But I was also under the care of a chiro and he agreed
I should try it. Now I was also going to buy one of those inversion tables.
Everything I read said wonderful things about them. Well, my chiro said
absolutely not for me. Because of my spine the table would do more harm to me.
I also must say that in 20+ years of back "doctors", they certainly all did
not agree on what would help me. I'm lucky to have a good one now.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
My piano bench has an arrangement on it so you can provide a tilt at one
"end" which could face the front or the back depending on how you
arrange the bench. I dont use it but it may be there to allow a tilt
for your posture...trouble is you cant figure out which way it was
intended to be used if that was what it was for.
In any case I think getting professional advice from a chiropractor is a
contradiction in terms.
TS
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Your thoughts interest me since obviously I have always been told
otherwise. I looked through a few books I have this afternoon but
couldn't find the specific one which has the chapter for secretaries
and truck drivers - people who sit a lot. I do remember though that it
said when sitting at a desk one should always put a box or something
to put one's feet "up" so the knees are not bellow the level of one's
bottom. I did however find one article which has much about adjusting
the seat while driving and it also says that lower the seat to the
lowest position possible so that knee to thigh is level at least. If I
find the other article I will copy it if it is not overly long. I do
know that having ridden horses most of my life, that I cannot ride in
the usual Western Saddle since the stirrups are placed almost under
the body. I had to seek out someone who made a balanced ride saddle
built along the lines of English saddles with ones knees in front of
the body which put me in more of a sitting position. One of the
reasons I almost always rode English was because of my bad back - and
also why I had gaited horses.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
If keeping your knees high had worked, perhaps you wouldn't be troubled today!
The key here is, what's wrong with your back? If nothing is wrong, no disk
problems, compression fractures, whatever, then consider the following:
The ultra-modern "posture" chair of a few years ago, which was backless, with a
low kneepad and a seat. Computer freaks used to use them because, hell, nothing
embarrassed them anyway. The point was to maintain the normal curves of the
back--especially the small of the back, which should curve "normally" forward.
The chair gave relief to many, although some had trouble getting used to them.
The point being, the lower the knees, the more pronounced the forward curve of
the lower back, the less likely one would be to slouch in the chair.
There are also exercises for bad lumbar disks called "McKensies." These
exercises, and associated physical therapy, teach the sufferer to go through life
for a few months without ever flexing the lower back the wrong way.
One thing I learned when I had disk problems was that your average doctor was a
complete ignoramus about such things. Even orthopods knew very little. I
recommend that you find a well-qualified physical therapist to evaluate your back
condition and to recommend solutions. You won't be sorry (particularly if your
insurance will pay for it and your doctor will prescribe it).
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Actually I didn't hear about the knees thing until having suffered
many years and for me - well I personally think it does help. After
cancer surgery a couple of years back when I was in bed for quite a
while, putting apillow under my knees certainly relieved the strain on
my back. I also read somewhere a time ago, that putting one foot up on
a small stool while standing at the sink for eg. doing dishes, would
ease the back, and having tried that I know it really worked for me.
Probably different things work for different ailments as you say, but
always remembering the knees higher than hips has definitely helped me
a lot. I also worked for my Chiro for a while so had access to lots of
his findings and library and found the knees higher thing mentioned
often in works. Of course playing the piano that would be difficult
indeed having to use the pedals. Come to think of it maybe that's why
Little Richard played the piano with his feet!
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
I know that the best thing to do is develop good posture (assuming
you don't have a medical problem), but has anyone tried those things
called "true back" advertised; it is a curved wooden device you put on
the floor and lay backwards on it, and is claimed to relieve back pain.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
As I have only recently started learning the piano I cannot really comment
on back pain arising specifically from piano playing. I have, however,
suffered from similar back problems on and off for a number of years (lot of
non-piano keyboard work) and certainly they seemed to get worse when I
started playing. On the advise of several people including my piano teacher
I started following the principles of Alexander Technique and just over a
period on 2 months I have noticed a significant reduction in back pain.
To find out about AT you really need to locate an AT teacher but basically
it is concerned with body posture and specifically the "lengthening" of the
spine, neck and head.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Here are some things that can cause pianists to develop back problems. The main
cause of upper back problems is leaning away from the piano while playing so
that the arms are outstretched toward the piano and the elbows are in front of
the torso of the body. In this position, the muscles of the upper back are
forced to stretch while the muscles of the chest have to contract. Do this for
several hours and you're upper back is exhaustedand overstretched, while your
chest is extremely contracted and tight. Even "good" piano playing will have
this effect, but not as drastically. Solution: lean forward as you play, make
sure your elbows are winged away from your body and at least directly off to the
sides of your torso. Stretch the muscles of your chest frequently - lean through
doorways with your arms outstretched, for instance.
Lower back problems are sometimes caused the same way - leaning away from the
piano puts pressure on the lower vertebrae. Lean forward! This causes your
verterbrae to stretch away from one another, instead of grinding with weight on
top of one another.
All pianists who play correctly (i.e. brace themselves with the left foot under
the bench most of the time as they pedal with the right) are twisting their
pelvises. There is no solution for this, and it does have repercussions on the
entire back as the muscles have to work assymetrically to support this
out-of-balance position. To get a visual image of what is happening to your
pelvis, depress your right wrist and lift your hand (sort of like you're
drinking a tiny cup of tea) and raise your left wrist high and drop your hand
under it. Now make fists in both hands while you look at them in this position.
It's obvious when you look at them this way, that you have to reverse the twist
periodically if you don't want to have a deformed body.
Suggestion: Brace yourself with your right foot extended well back and with the
left foot forward once in a while (every day for several minutes).
Study Alexander Technique or Feldenkrais and learn about your back and the rest
of your body. Learn the constructive rest postition and spend some time in it
every day.
(Most body work people or dancers can show you what this postition is).
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
>
> Just out of curiosity-- don't your elbows get in the way when you do that?
> Halp! I'm a 14 year old geek! Everything's out of proportion and those darn
> windmill arms of mine are in the way even when I'm not playing! ...anyone else
> have this problem? (Sorry if this leads off on a tangent.)
> sempre fidelis
> S. McC.
>
Hi S. McC -
No, your elbows don't need to get in the way. You may be locking your elbows
against your sides when you try this. They should be like wings, flying off to either
side, with lots of air under the armpits. You actually have more lateral freedom in
this position than with your arms outstretched in front. I laughed out loud at your
self-description - most of us who are as tall or taller than average have gone through
this stage!
I went to the piano to try this out. Try putting the front edge of your bench about 8
inches away (back) from the keyboard. Now try sitting so that your rear goes no further
than half way on the bench. (Sit toward the center-front of the bench) Now if you sit
absolutely upright, your elbows will be a little bit in front of your body. This is
where, and why you lean your body forward toward the keyboard. You should feel your
elbows change their position relative to your torso as you lean. They should be hanging
directly off the sides now. (But not locked against them!). Good luck - in
another few years, your body will start to feel like it actually belongs to
you.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
I had a similar problem when I did four-hour gigs. The solution for me was
simple. I found a piano stool that has a back support similar to that of a
desk chair. The dining chairs in better restaurants seem to work OK, too,
and the height is even right.
>
I find that a good Drum Throne works very well. Some of them can be
had with a back support already built in. The nice part about a good
drum throne is the height is micro-adjustable. Go to a good music or
drum store and try them out.
&
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.piano
Subject: Re: Bad back
Another problem that I find is that some establishments (hotels, typically)
put the piano on a permanent dolly for moving it around. The height of the
keyboard is raised as is the distance of the pedals from the floor. Not only
are your arms and wrists bent wrong, the arch of your foot is too. I use an
adjustable piano stool (with a back support) in those places and a short
length of 2x6 lumber to put under my heels. I painted the 2x6 ebony so it
would look classy next to my tux.