NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 13:05:32 GMT Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94651 Hi I am trying to learn a Scarlatti piano sonata Kp.27 for an ABRSM Grade 8 exam on 29/03/00 and it is quite fast - crotchet = 120 ( fast for me anyway) with the RH playing lots of semiquavers. My problem is that my right forearm aches REALLY badly when I try to play at the correct tempo and I end up slowing down a lot. Can anybody suggest ways in which to overcome this problem or is it normal to ache badly when playing at a quick tempo? I would really appreciate any advice offered. Thanks in advance NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 07:24:31 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94661 Sounds like tensions to me. Either you need to be more patient and build the speed up gradually; stop letting the exam worry you and thus remove the mental tension; think to hell with the prescribed tempo, I can play it musically at *my* speed; or it might be that your whole technique needs readdressing. If I were you I would play it as *musically* as possible at a slower speed, e.g. 90. Does it really need to go at 120 ??? When I did my grade 7 exam (Guildhall) one of the pieces I played was Bach's Sarabande in C minor from the Partitas. My teacher at the time had no idea about Bach playing and constantly pushed me to go faster. During the exam I broke down three times during that piece because I had opted for a fast speed. I passed with Merit rather than the Distinction I would easily have got with out the breakdowns ( I was about 1 1/2 % off). According to my partner (a professional singer and piano teacher), the sensitive way I played that piece when left to my own choice of slow tempo was one of the most beautiful moments of my playing she had ever heard. I never did pass a grade exam with distinction, I nearly always, including at grade 8, got merit. Don't let speed spoil your musicianship. Be brave, SLOW DOWN !!! NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:10:56 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94870 > >I don't know about grades higher than 4, but in my experience >they allow a certain latitude regarding tempo. I definately >played pieces slower than marked, and achieved 4 distinctions. > >-- >Andrew There is latitude at all grades, this is not science, it is music. However, moving from 4 to 5 and from 7 to 8, you will find stricter standards. See these music exams published by the associated board for details. Just on a purely human element, the examiners are not going to pile on a just starting off grade one youngster. At grade 8 though, they should 'know the score' both literally and figuratively. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 09:10:37 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94668 You're definately playing too tense. Relax. Your arm, between your shoulder and your wrist, should be relaxed like a dishrag. I'll bet your forarm is tight like a drum. Keep your shoulders high and your back strait. Hold your wrist just higher than the keys. Use your finger and hand muscles for playing the notes and your shoulder for lateral movement -- not your forearm. Practice slowly until you can play the passages relaxed, then speed up a bit. Keep working your tempo higher only after being able to play it relaxed. There are several good books on proper physiology, but I like to recommend Georgy Sandor's book, "On Piano Playing." He gives some terrific advice on how to play fast passages properly -- he really improved my technique a lot. X-Accept-Language: en Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:95061 As another poster said, aches and pains are not "normal." Do not play this way! To avoid it, you need very specific guidance from a person who has very specific knowledge. I recommend that you Immediately arrange for lessons either from a teacher of Alexander Technique or the Taubman Technique. A.T. is not a piano technique but a general technique for using the body properly in whatever you do; see various A.T. websites for locations of teachers. T.T. *is* a piano technique and indeed seems to be a whole approach to the piano to which one is required to subscribe. I have personal experience with A.T., none with T.T., though I know a fine pianist plays well and with ease who swears by it. Do not--repeat not!-- expect any "conventional" teacher, no matter how good or of what qualifications, to be able to help with this problem. Do not ignore it but get help today! X-Accept-Language: en Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:95061 Aches and pains are *never* normal -- this is one of the very few absolutes in piano playing. From your description, I'd guess that you're trying to play with pure finger action and a stiff wrist. "Relaxation" is a deceptive term since you hardly ever want to relax *everything*, but a pliable wrist is quite important. Otherwise, you'll expend half your effort fighting gravity instead of using the natural weight of the hand to help you press the keys. Talk it over with your teacher for precise suggestions; you need someone knowledgeable to watch what you're doing. In the meantime, I agree with other posters that simply cutting back on speed is a good stop-gap measure. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 14:10:15 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94688 Along with the other good advise, I'd say make sure you aren't bunching your shoulders up around your ears, especially the right one. I've found that tensing the shoulders up that way seems to 'set off' a trigger point in the forearm, I think it's due perhaps to pressure on the nerve running down the arm. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 22:20:46 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94725 >I just starteda piece which demands a lot of stretching and the upper part >of my hand between the webs is sore from the new stretching. I think this >ache is normal for developing reach? > What is this piece? It is possible to do a yoga-like static stretching, using the keys as anchors, but I do this as part of a warm up, much like a dancer stretches out before dancing, and is in no way playing of the instrument. It seems to me if you are experiencing soreness between all the fingers, you are reaching for keys when perhaps you should be moving your hand position (? just a wild guess), or are very tight and tense when playing. Pain is a Very Very Bad Thing. I've had tendinitis, very badly, and finally took three years off to make it go away. I still am very careful about it, and cannot practice as I would like to. Heed pain. Pain is a teacher. Pain is your friend, unless you let it become your enemy. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 22:20:46 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94725 >>I just started a piece which demands a lot of stretching and the upper >>part of my hand between the webs is sore from the new stretching. >>I think this ache is normal for developing reach? > >[...] It seems to me if you >are experiencing soreness between all the fingers, you are >reaching for keys when perhaps you should be moving your hand >position (? just a wild guess), Glad I looked at the followups before responding to Mr. Murty -- you took the words right out of my fingers. My guess was that he wasn't moving his wrist *laterally* to help cover the notes. >or are very tight and tense when >playing. Pain is a Very Very Bad Thing. I've had tendinitis, >very badly, and finally took three years off to make it go away. Ouch. I had DeQuervain's for a year, with an additional year of careful playing after surgery. The fact that the injury was work-related rather than piano-related didn't make me feel any better.... NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:09:12 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94971 In article <8a9lau$9n7@diamond.cs.columbia.edu>, tait@diamond.cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait) wrote: >Glad I looked at the followups before responding to Mr. Murty -- >you took the words right out of my fingers. My guess was that >he wasn't moving his wrist *laterally* to help cover the notes. > This just came up in a post I replied to, most of which I quote from Newmans book (my bible for piano playing) about hand position changes (the fingerings for technique thread). Whiteside also talks about it, and refers to 'reaching' rather than moving the hand/arm unit. I also like to call it 'spidering.' It's a sure sign that the mind is not involved enough! either that, or the basic principle has never been explained to the student. It's scary how many teachers there are who don't know how to teach that very basic thing about piano playing. >Ouch. I had DeQuervain's for a year, with an additional year >of careful playing after surgery. The fact that the injury was >work-related rather than piano-related didn't make me feel >any better.... > what is DeQuervain's? I thought I had had EVERYthing! tendinitis, carpal tunnel, peripheral neuropathy (the 80's were hell, but it got better. It's a long story) What does the surgery involve? I had a doctor offer surgery to 'clean up' the fibrotic mess that my right hand was at one time, but I turned her down. Glad I did, too, it's much better now. I'm not sure that the hand ever fully recovers from that kind of surgery. One of the upsides to it all, was I learned to conduct . . . NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:00:20 PST Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94694 I am 61 and I do know that when started to play the scales properly, my thumb joint ached terribly. I persisted and it has now eased off. I think in my case, it is more to do with age and never having done that kind of excercise. Have you asked your teacher? Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94700 I dont think that all pieces can be played without pain. Try playing these Rachmaninoff Etude in A min N. 14 Liszt La Campanella or the Hungarian Rhapsody 2 your arm will hurt after playing these no matter what wrist motion you use, it is so much stretching and contracting that the muscles will ache after you are done. You can lift weights to increase tolerance and strength, I have found this to help. Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94735 Valerie, one way to check too much tension in the forearm is to play the entire piece detached, letting the fingers drop loosely onto the keys and allowing them to bounce back up to the "neutral" position. If you study musical style, you will learn that this is absolutely appropriate for quick harpsichord pieces of the late Baroque, and it has the additional advantage that you cannot clutch the muscles of your forearm. Note that this detached playing is different than some sort of staccato made by plucking the fingers as they strike. That much articulation is not necessary and will not relieve your tension. If you practice this way for a week, you will find that your speed is gradually increasing. By the time you play it "up to tempo", you will barely be detaching, but the physical approach will now be correct and nearly tension-free. At first, you might feel that you are not working hard enough. And that's right, you should not feel that you are struggling and "working". If you miss a few notes at first, that is also normal, until you learn to control this drop and bounce detached technique. Greg Xref: unlnews.unl.edu rec.music.makers.piano:94760 That struck me as an excellent condensation of Abby Whitesides' approach.