From: Dave Chaloux Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Finger picking hand and arm placement Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:22:36 -0500 I have been playing guitar for about 20 years and during that time, developed a VERY non-standard finger picking technique. Since I realize that there are some real advantages to the "correct" technique, I have started over. In doing so, I have looked at a few books and have noted some differences. The book I actually own suggests a number of things but two interest me in particular. 1) They emphasize that the right hand should be bent at the wrist such that the fingers are at a right angle to the strings. 2) They indicate that the elbow needs to be up from the body of the guitar and not resting on it. (Among other things this makes acheiving the first item easier). Since I am rebuilding my technique from scratch, I don't want to get into any really bad habits that will yet again need to be unlearned. However, I find that by trying to get my hands and elbow in the position recommended by the book, my right shoulder is killing me. My gut feeling is that the way it is hurting is not just a simple matter of being sore that will go away with practice as muscles develop. Therefore, I am very reluctant to "do it right". I have seen at least one book that suggests coming in at more of an angle precisely because of stress related injuries. What do you think? What position do you use and if non-standard, do you think it hurts your playing and or tone much? TIA: Dave From: kene@sequent.com (Ken Ewing) Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Finger picking hand and arm placement Date: 10 Mar 1997 23:23:22 GMT In article <33246D8C.2781E494@address.com>, Dave Chaloux wrote: : >Since I am rebuilding my technique from scratch, I don't >want to get into any really bad habits that will yet again >need to be unlearned. However, I find that by trying to >get my hands and elbow in the position recommended by the >book, my right shoulder is killing me. It's hard to judge without actually watching you. I know that when I`m learning a new technique I often hold a lot of tension trying to do it "right," and then relax after the technique becomes more familiar. Sounds like you're perhaps ruling out that possibility. >I have seen at least one book that suggests coming in at >more of an angle precisely because of stress related >injuries. What do you think? What position do you use and >if non-standard, do you think it hurts your playing and or >tone much? I think of a playing position as being more than just the hand(s). I use a variation of classical guitar posture. I took classical lessons for three years, and that was about 15 years ago. With classical position, you sit with your left leg elevated on a foot pedal and the guitar resting on your left thigh. In this way the guitar has four points of contact on your body: 1) Left thigh (primary resting point and pivot point) 2) Upper right arm (pressing downward to hold the guitar in place and leaving the elbow and forearm free) 3) Inner side of right thigh (the point where you "wedge" the guitar into with the downward pressure of your right arm) 4) Left side of your chest (about at the left pectoral muscle, which provides a sort of "backstop" support for the upper corner of the guitar) This posture has the following advantages: 1) Basically all four corners of the guitar are held securely. 2) Your left hand does not support any weight of the guitar, leaving your hand completely free for playing. 3) The angle of the neck is higher, which is a more natural position for fingering than a flatter angle. 4) Your right arm falls into a natural position for picking. The disadvantage of this position is that your hips and back become quite fatigued. This posture also assumes you are *not* using a thumbpick. If you use a thumbpick, you may have to modify this somewhat. I took a few piano lessons once. I was surprised to learn that (at least according to this teacher) the angle of my right hand to forearm was much the same as the angle used for playing piano. Nowadays I either sit on a barstool or I stand. When on the barstool, I put my feet into the rungs so that my left leg is elevated similarly to how a classical player looks with a foot pedal under his left foot. In other respects my posture is the same as the classical player. When I stand, I position the guitar to a similar angle as with my sitting position. In all positions, my right arm is much the same. I won't try to give a detailed explanation of my right hand position. One book that discusses posture and other techniques quite well is "The Art of Classical Guitar Playing" by Charles Duncan. Though the book is aimed at classical players, the discussion of posture, hand positions, etc. is still valid for steel-string players. Another place that discusses this in less detail is Mark Hanson's book "Contemporary Travis Picking". Ken Ewing Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. Beaverton, Oregon From: "Chuck Boyer" Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Finger picking hand and arm placement Date: 11 Mar 1997 03:51:37 GMT Dave Chaloux wrote in article <33246D8C.2781E494@address.com>... > I have been playing guitar for about 20 years and during > that time, developed a VERY non-standard finger picking > technique. Since I realize that there are some real > advantages to the "correct" technique, I have started > I'm in a similar situation, Dave. First picked up a guitar in '65 and played relatively steadily for 5 yrs; then off and on until about a year ago; now almost daily since January. I finally took my first music lesson 4 days ago, from a *real* performing, recording, multiple award-winning professional, and guess what-- I have to rework my right hand position. > 1) They emphasize that the right hand should be bent at > the wrist such that the fingers are at a right angle to > the strings. While it's true that YMMV, and I'm sure others will have an opinion on this, I can tell you from watching the guy up close that it works! IMHO that's probably best for good sound. That way the fingers impart maximum energy to the strings. I had always played with right hand at a fairly comfortable angle to the strings --almost like shaking hands-- in a position he called the "lute" position. The problem with that position is that it's hard to get decent volume or clarity out of the guitar. After switching toward the "correct" right hand position, I was amazed at the increase in loudness and tone quality, although my mistakes are also now much more distinct! ;-) The new position isn't uncomfortable, but it's different and I'm having to relearn the "feel" of the fingers on the strings: like relearning touch typing on this "ergonomic" keyboard I'm using right now. > 2) They indicate that the elbow needs to be up from the > body of the guitar and not resting on it. (Among other > things this makes acheiving the first item easier). > <...> > Since I am rebuilding my technique from scratch, I don't > want to get into any really bad habits that will yet again > need to be unlearned. However, I find that by trying to > get my hands and elbow in the position recommended by the > book, my right shoulder is killing me. My gut feeling is > that the way it is hurting is not just a simple matter of > being sore that will go away with practice as muscles > develop. Therefore, I am very reluctant to "do it right". The pro rested his on the guitar, although he said that in the recording studio he usually sits almost in the classical position, without a foot rest but with his right foot dragged back to drop the right thigh a bit. When he demonstrated, the guitar was about 60 degrees up from horizontal, and his arm was touching, but not resting on the guitar body. During my lesson he was sitting in a chair that was missing a right arm, and he noted how it was kind of comfortable to lean on the left arm of the chair while he was playing. In that position, I'd guess the guitar was about 30 degrees up from horizontal, and his arm *was* resting on the guitar body. From the caliber of his play from that position, I'd be hard pressed to argue against the practice. > > I have seen at least one book that suggests coming in at > more of an angle precisely because of stress related > injuries. What do you think? What position do you use and > if non-standard, do you think it hurts your playing and or > tone much? > Re stress injuries, I have in the past (June to November time frame) had problems in my left wrist caused by hours at the keyboard doing software development. Surprisingly, I found that playing the guitar seemed to help the left wrist! With my new enthusiasm for practice, however, I've sensed that *extended* practice sessions have the potential to do some real damage. I've jumped into this lesson thing with both feet, trying to make up for lost time, but the pro cautioned me against overdoing it. Lots of short sessions are better than one long one, especially when doing those repetitive exercises I'd ignored over the years. ...funny how paying for lessons makes the exercises more palatable ;-) Anyway, there's a couple of thoughts from my little corner of the universe. Good luck to ya, Dave! -- Chuck From: rafael67@ix.netcom.com(David M Feldberg) Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Finger picking hand and arm placement Date: 11 Mar 1997 07:04:24 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5g305o$l4s@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> References: <33246D8C.2781E494@address.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grc-ny14-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 10 11:04:24 PM PST 1997 If you're in pain from trying to rework your technique, something isn't right! First of all, if you look closely at ten great players' hand position you might see ten different things. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...that said, though, I think the idea is to keep the shoulders relaxed, the elbows loose and "open," and the wrists relatively straight. Bending the right wrist puts additional strain on the tendons. The elbow should be in a position that allows the right forearm to work as a unit from knuckle to elbow. This keeps the tendons loose and also gives you more power and a bigger tone. Like I said, though, there's no hard & fast rule, other than "no pain, no gain" does NOT apply here! Good luck! Dave From: Scott Burright Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Finger picking hand and arm placement Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:50:28 -0500 If it's any help: Stefan Grossman writes that there is no such thing as proper right-hand technique in folk. Anything goes. He contrasts the right-hand styles of some very distinguished pickers to illustrate his point. If you're doing strictly classical, I guess that's another story. --Scott Burright "Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung." - Voltaire